Tuesday, May 21, 2024
Sunday, May 19, 2024
#AI #OpenAI #ChatGPT: A conversation about "neoliberalism" and deregulation.
I asked ChatGPT:
"Frequently we hear that during the last three to four decades, what is referred to as “neoliberalism” has brought with it way too much deregulation. Do you have any comment on that?"
ChatGPT answered:
The critique that neoliberalism has led to excessive deregulation over the past few decades is a common one and is rooted in the core principles of neoliberal thought. Neoliberalism, which gained prominence in the late 20th century, emphasizes free markets, deregulation, privatization, and a reduction in government intervention in the economy. Proponents argue that these measures enhance efficiency, promote economic growth, and foster innovation. Critics, however, argue that this approach has several significant drawbacks:
1. Financial Crises: Deregulation in the financial sector is often cited as a major factor contributing to financial instability. The most prominent example is the 2008 global financial crisis, which many economists attribute to the deregulation of financial markets, the removal of safeguards that previously restrained risky lending practices, and the lack of oversight over complex financial instruments.
2. Income Inequality: Neoliberal policies are often criticized for exacerbating income inequality. By prioritizing market efficiency and growth, these policies can lead to significant wealth concentration in the hands of a few, while the benefits of growth are not evenly distributed. This has been observed in many countries where neoliberal policies have been implemented, resulting in a widening gap between the rich and the poor.
3. Labor Market Impacts: Deregulation can weaken labor protections, leading to precarious employment conditions, stagnation of wages, and a decline in job security for many workers. This can undermine social stability and reduce overall consumer spending, which in turn can negatively impact economic growth.
4. Environmental Concerns: Deregulation often includes the loosening of environmental protections, which can lead to increased pollution and degradation of natural resources. The emphasis on short-term economic gains can come at the expense of long-term environmental sustainability.
5. Public Services: Neoliberalism promotes the privatization of public services such as healthcare, education, and transportation. Critics argue that this can lead to reduced access and higher costs for essential services, particularly harming low-income populations who may be priced out of these services.
6. Market Failures: The assumption that markets are inherently efficient and self-correcting can overlook the prevalence of market failures. These include monopolies, negative externalities (such as pollution), and information asymmetries, where consumers and producers do not have equal access to information, leading to suboptimal outcomes.
While neoliberalism has been credited with spurring economic growth and innovation in certain contexts, its emphasis on deregulation has also led to significant socio-economic and environmental challenges. The balance between market freedom and regulatory oversight remains a contentious issue, with ongoing debates about the optimal level of regulation to ensure both economic vitality and social well-being.
I asked ChatGPT:
"For the time being, let’s set aside other aspects of “neoliberalism” and concentrate on “deregulation”.
Have e.g., bank, labor market and environmental regulations increased or decreased over this time?"
ChatGPT answered:
The trajectory of deregulation in various sectors such as banking, labor markets, and environmental regulations over the past few decades has been mixed, varying significantly by country and over different time periods. Here's an overview:
Banking Regulations
1980s-2008:
Deregulation: The financial sector saw substantial deregulation during this period. In the United States, notable examples include the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999, which had previously separated commercial and investment banking, and the rise of mortgage-backed securities and other complex financial instruments.
Global Trend: Many other countries followed similar paths, embracing financial liberalization and reduced oversight to promote growth and competition.
Post-2008 Financial Crisis:
Reregulation: The 2008 financial crisis led to a significant reversal of this trend. In the U.S., the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act of 2010 introduced extensive regulations to increase transparency, oversight, and stability in the financial system.
Global Response: Other countries also tightened regulations, with measures such as the Basel III accords, which strengthened bank capital requirements and introduced new regulatory standards.
Labor Market Regulations
1980s-Present:
Deregulation: Many advanced economies experienced labor market deregulation aimed at increasing flexibility. This included reducing employment protection legislation, making it easier to hire and fire workers, and decentralizing collective bargaining.
Varied Impact: The extent of deregulation has varied. For instance, Anglo-Saxon economies like the U.S. and UK saw significant deregulation, while many European countries maintained more robust labor protections despite some reforms.
Recent Trends:
Mixed Changes: In recent years, there have been both deregulation and reregulation trends. Some countries have introduced measures to protect gig economy workers and address issues like zero-hour contracts, while others continue to emphasize labor market flexibility to combat unemployment.
Environmental Regulations
1980s-Present:
Initial Deregulation: The 1980s and 1990s saw some deregulation efforts, particularly in industries such as energy, with the aim of reducing costs and stimulating economic growth.
Climate Change Focus: From the late 1990s onward, growing awareness of climate change and environmental degradation led to increased regulation in many parts of the world. International agreements like the Kyoto Protocol (1997) and the Paris Agreement (2015) spurred countries to implement stricter environmental policies.
Recent Trends:
Varying Approaches: Environmental regulation has seen a mix of tightening and loosening depending on political administrations and global economic conditions. For example, during the Trump administration, the U.S. rolled back numerous environmental protections, while the Biden administration has moved to reinstate and strengthen them.
Global Push: Many countries, particularly in Europe, have continued to enhance environmental regulations to meet international climate goals and transition to green economies.
Summary
Overall, the past few decades have seen substantial periods of deregulation, particularly in the banking sector leading up to the 2008 financial crisis and in labor markets to enhance flexibility. However, post-crisis financial regulations have tightened significantly, reflecting a shift towards increased oversight. Environmental regulations have generally increased over time due to rising awareness of climate change, although this trend is subject to political and economic fluctuations.
I asked ChatGPT:
Banking: "Before 1988 bank regulations normally imposed on single capital/equity requirement against all assets. In 1988 regulators, with Basel I, 30 pages, introduced risk weighted bank capital requirements. In 2004 with Basel II, 251 pages, they expanded that by e.g., introducing the role of credit rating agencies. The current short version of Basel III, not yet ended, contains 1.626 pages.
If to that one adds the growth in the number of bank regulators and bank supervisors, would you still argue that is consistent with “deregulation?"
ChatGPT answered:
The evolution of banking regulations, particularly with the Basel Accords, indeed indicates a trend towards increased regulation rather than deregulation. The growing complexity and length of these accords reflect a shift towards more comprehensive and detailed regulatory frameworks aimed at enhancing the stability and resilience of the banking sector. Here’s a closer look at the progression:
Basel I (1988)Introduction: Basel I introduced the concept of risk-weighted assets and set a minimum capital requirement of 8% for banks.
Scope: The framework was relatively simple, with only 30 pages of guidelines.
Basel II (2004)Expansion: Basel II significantly expanded on Basel I, introducing more complex methodologies for risk assessment and the role of credit rating agencies in evaluating credit risk.
Complexity: The document grew to 251 pages, reflecting a more detailed approach to regulation, including three pillars: minimum capital requirements, supervisory review, and market discipline.
Basel III (Post-2008)Response to Crisis: Basel III was developed in response to the 2008 financial crisis, addressing shortcomings in Basel II and introducing more stringent capital requirements, leverage ratios, and liquidity standards.
Length and Detail: The short version alone is 1,626 pages, demonstrating a significant increase in regulatory complexity and detail.
Ongoing Developments: Basel III is still evolving, with continuous updates and refinements to address emerging risks and financial innovations.
Growth of Regulatory Bodies Increase in Regulators: Over the past few decades, the number of regulatory bodies and supervisors has increased globally. This growth reflects a heightened focus on oversight, compliance, and the prevention of systemic risks.
Enhanced Supervision: The role of regulators has expanded to include more rigorous monitoring, stress testing, and enforcement of compliance standards.
Summary
The trajectory of banking regulations, from Basel I to Basel III, clearly indicates a trend towards increased regulation. The growth in the length and complexity of regulatory documents, alongside the proliferation of regulatory bodies and supervisory activities, supports the view that the banking sector has seen a significant increase in regulation rather than deregulation over the past few decades.
While there was a phase of deregulation in the financial sector during the late 20th century, especially in the lead-up to the 2008 financial crisis, the post-crisis regulatory response has been characterized by substantial reregulation. This shift aims to mitigate the risks that were exposed during the crisis and to enhance the overall stability and resilience of the global financial system.
I asked ChatGPT:
"Over the last four decades, has the number of regulations and number of regulators that apply the protection of the environment and fighting climate change, decreased or increased? If the latter is that consistent with a deregulation?"
ChatGPT answered:
Over the last four decades, the number of regulations and regulators focused on environmental protection and fighting climate change has generally increased. This trend reflects a global recognition of the urgent need to address environmental degradation and climate change. Here are some key points to consider:
Increase in Environmental Regulations
1980s-Present:
Growth in Regulations: Starting in the late 20th century and continuing into the 21st, there has been a substantial increase in environmental regulations at both national and international levels. Notable milestones include the establishment of the Kyoto Protocol (1997) and the Paris Agreement (2015), which set binding targets for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
National Legislation: Many countries have enacted more stringent environmental laws, such as the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act in the United States, the European Union's Emissions Trading System (ETS), and various renewable energy mandates and sustainability initiatives worldwide.
Growth in Regulatory Bodies
Establishment of New Agencies:
Environmental Protection Agencies: Countries have created or expanded the mandates of environmental protection agencies. For instance, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has broadened its scope over the years, while new agencies have been established in emerging economies.
International Organizations: Bodies like the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) have grown in influence and activity, coordinating international efforts and setting regulatory frameworks.
Specific Examples of Regulatory Increases
United States:
EPA Expansion: The EPA has increased its regulatory oversight with numerous new rules targeting air quality, water safety, and chemical hazards.
Climate Initiatives: Regulations like the Clean Power Plan (although contested and partially rolled back under different administrations) aimed to significantly reduce carbon emissions from power plants.
European Union:
Emissions Trading: The EU ETS is a cornerstone of the EU's policy to combat climate change, involving comprehensive regulation of carbon emissions.
Renewable Energy Directives: The EU has implemented several directives aimed at increasing the share of renewable energy in its member states.
China:
Environmental Protection Law: Revised multiple times, this law has introduced stricter penalties and more rigorous enforcement of pollution controls.
Carbon Market: China has established a national carbon market to control and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
Consistency with Deregulation
Contradictory Trends:
Sector-Specific Deregulation: While environmental regulations have generally increased, there have been instances of deregulation in other sectors, such as finance and labor markets, particularly during periods of neoliberal policy dominance.
Political Shifts: Regulatory trends often fluctuate with political changes. For example, different U.S. administrations have alternated between strengthening and rolling back environmental regulations.
Overall Trend:
Increasing Regulation: The overall trend in environmental regulation and the number of regulators is one of increase, driven by growing awareness of environmental issues and the global consensus on the need for action against climate change.
Conclusion
The significant increase in environmental regulations and regulatory bodies over the past four decades is inconsistent with the notion of deregulation in this specific domain. While neoliberalism has promoted deregulation in various economic sectors, environmental regulation has generally moved in the opposite direction, reflecting the critical and growing importance of addressing environmental challenges and climate change.
I asked ChatGPT:
"In the same vein, over the last four decades, has the number of regulations and number of regulators that applies to the protection of labor, decreased or increased? If the latter is that consistent with a deregulation?"
ChatGPT answered:
Over the last four decades, the landscape of labor regulations and the number of labor regulators has experienced both increases and decreases, depending on the region and specific time periods. Here's a closer look at the trends:
Labor Regulations
1980s-2000s:
Deregulation Trend: In many advanced economies, especially those influenced by neoliberal economic policies, there was a significant push towards labor market deregulation. This included:
Reducing employment protection legislation.
Increasing labor market flexibility by making it easier to hire and fire employees.
Encouraging part-time, temporary, and gig economy jobs over traditional full-time positions.
Examples:
United States and United Kingdom: Both countries saw significant labor market deregulation under leaders like Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. This included weakening of unions, reduction of collective bargaining power, and changes in minimum wage laws.
European Union: While some EU countries maintained strong labor protections, there were reforms aimed at increasing flexibility, such as relaxing dismissal protections and promoting part-time work.
2000s-Present:
Mixed Trends: The early 21st century has seen varied approaches:
Re-regulation in Some Areas: Some countries have introduced new labor protections in response to the rise of the gig economy, addressing issues like job security, minimum wage standards, and benefits for non-traditional workers.
Ongoing Deregulation: Other countries continue to pursue deregulation to combat unemployment and enhance economic competitiveness.
Number of Labor Regulators
1980s-Present:
Increase in Oversight: Despite periods of deregulation, the number of regulatory bodies and oversight mechanisms has generally increased, particularly in response to globalization and the complexity of modern labor markets.
Expanded Mandates: Existing labor regulators have often expanded their mandates to cover emerging issues like workplace discrimination, health and safety standards, and rights for gig economy workers.
Examples:
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) in the U.S.: While facing political and funding challenges, OSHA's scope has broadened over the years to address more workplace safety issues.
European Union's Labor Agencies: The EU has developed several agencies and directives aimed at harmonizing labor standards across member states, such as the European Labour Authority.
Consistency with Deregulation
Contradictory Trends:
Overall Increase in Regulation: While certain labor market aspects have been deregulated, the overall regulatory framework has expanded in complexity, particularly concerning workplace safety, anti-discrimination laws, and non-traditional employment forms.
Political and Economic Influences: Trends in labor regulation often reflect broader political and economic contexts, with deregulation occurring during periods of neoliberal dominance and increased regulation during times of social-democratic influence.
Overall Trend:
Mixed Outcomes: The general trend shows both deregulatory and regulatory movements:
Deregulation: There was significant deregulation in labor markets, especially in the 1980s and 1990s, aimed at increasing flexibility.
Regulation: In response to new challenges and changing labor dynamics, many countries have introduced new forms of regulation to protect workers in the gig economy and address contemporary labor issues.
Conclusion
The number of labor regulations and regulatory bodies has seen both increases and decreases over the last four decades. While there was substantial deregulation aimed at increasing labor market flexibility, recent years have witnessed new regulatory efforts to address emerging labor market issues. This complex interplay suggests that while aspects of labor markets have been deregulated, the overall regulatory environment has evolved, reflecting the changing nature of work and the need for new protections. This evolution indicates that the concept of deregulation in labor markets is nuanced and context-dependent.
I asked ChatGPT:
"So, if the growth, over the last four decades, in the number of regulations and regulators involved with banking, the environment and the labour markets have clearly not decreased, much the contrary, to what economic sectors could one argue, with evidence, that neoliberalism has promoted their deregulation?"
ChatGPT answered:
Neoliberalism, characterized by its emphasis on free markets, minimal government intervention, and privatization, has indeed promoted deregulation in several economic sectors over the past four decades.
While the banking sector, environmental regulation, and labor markets have seen periods of both deregulation and reregulation, other sectors have experienced more consistent and pronounced deregulation trends. Here are some key sectors where neoliberalism has promoted deregulation:
Telecommunications
Deregulation Trends:
United States: The Telecommunications Act of 1996 aimed to reduce regulatory barriers and encourage competition by deregulating the industry. This act allowed for greater market entry and competition among service providers.
Global Trend: Many countries followed suit by privatizing state-owned telecommunication companies and reducing regulatory controls, leading to increased competition and lower prices for consumers.
Energy Sector
Deregulation Trends:
Electricity and Gas Markets: Many countries, including the United States, the United Kingdom, and several European countries, have deregulated their electricity and natural gas markets. This included breaking up state monopolies, introducing competition, and allowing market-driven pricing.
Privatization: State-owned energy companies were privatized, and regulatory frameworks were adjusted to facilitate market entry and competition.
Airline Industry
Deregulation Trends:
United States: The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 significantly reduced federal control over fares, routes, and market entry of new airlines. This led to increased competition, lower fares, and the emergence of low-cost carriers.
Global Influence: Many other countries adopted similar deregulatory measures in their airline industries, fostering competition and expanding consumer choices.
Financial Markets (Beyond Banking)
Deregulation Trends:
Securities and Investment: Neoliberal policies promoted the deregulation of financial markets, encouraging the development and growth of new financial instruments and markets. This included easing restrictions on trading, reducing capital controls, and promoting the free flow of capital across borders.
Derivatives Market: The Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000 in the United States exempted most over-the-counter derivatives from regulation, contributing to the rapid growth of this market.
Transportation
Deregulation Trends:
Trucking and Rail: In the United States, the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 and the Staggers Rail Act of 1980 deregulated the trucking and railroad industries, respectively. These acts reduced government control over rates and services, promoting competition and efficiency.
Maritime Shipping: Many countries have deregulated their maritime shipping industries, reducing restrictions on foreign competition and allowing more flexibility in pricing and services.
Broadcasting and Media
Deregulation Trends:
United States: The Telecommunications Act of 1996 also impacted the broadcasting sector by easing ownership restrictions, leading to consolidation and increased competition in media markets.
Global Trends: Many countries have liberalized their broadcasting sectors, allowing private ownership and reducing government control over content and licensing.
Retail and Trade
Deregulation Trends:
Trade Liberalization: Neoliberalism has strongly promoted the reduction of tariffs, trade barriers, and import restrictions globally. This has facilitated the growth of international trade and the global integration of markets.
Retail Sector: Many countries have reduced restrictions on foreign direct investment in retail, allowing multinational corporations to enter and compete in domestic markets.
Summary
While sectors like banking, labor markets, and environmental protection have seen complex regulatory dynamics with phases of both deregulation and increased regulation, other sectors have experienced more consistent deregulation under neoliberal policies.
Telecommunications, energy, airlines, financial markets (particularly securities and derivatives), transportation, broadcasting, and retail/trade sectors have been significantly influenced by neoliberal deregulatory efforts. These changes have typically aimed at promoting competition, increasing efficiency, and fostering economic growth by reducing government intervention and allowing market forces to play a more dominant role.
I asked ChatGPT:
"So, here you describe what has happened in the areas of telecommunication, energy, non-banking financial markets, transportation, broadcasting and media, and retail and trade.
Could that be described as “neoliberalism” with its deregulation having produced bad results?"
ChatGPT answered:
The impact of neoliberal deregulation across various sectors—telecommunications, energy, non-banking financial markets, transportation, broadcasting and media, and retail and trade—has been complex, producing both positive and negative outcomes. Here’s a balanced overview of the results in these areas:
Telecommunications
Positive Outcomes:
Increased Competition: Deregulation fostered competition, leading to lower prices, better service quality, and more innovation.
Technological Advancements: The competitive environment spurred rapid technological progress and expansion of services such as mobile and broadband internet.
Negative Outcomes:
Market Concentration: Over time, deregulation has sometimes led to significant market concentration, with a few large companies dominating the market.
Quality and Access Disparities: There can be disparities in service quality and access, particularly in rural or less profitable areas.
Energy
Positive Outcomes:
Lower Prices: Competition in deregulated markets has often led to lower prices for consumers.
Efficiency Gains: Deregulated markets can drive more efficient production and distribution of energy.
Negative Outcomes:
Market Instability: Deregulation can lead to market instability, as seen in the California electricity crisis of 2000-2001.
Environmental Concerns: Deregulation might prioritize cost over environmental protections, potentially leading to higher emissions and slower adoption of renewable energy.
Non-Banking Financial Markets
Positive Outcomes:
Innovation and Growth: Deregulation spurred financial innovation and growth, expanding investment opportunities and access to capital.
Market Expansion: It facilitated the growth of global financial markets, enhancing liquidity and market depth.
Negative Outcomes:
Increased Risk and Volatility: Lack of regulation in markets like derivatives contributed to excessive risk-taking and financial crises, most notably the 2008 global financial crisis.
Consumer Protection Issues: Deregulation sometimes led to insufficient consumer protections, resulting in financial fraud and exploitation.
Transportation
Positive Outcomes:
Lower Fares and Increased Options: Deregulation, particularly in airlines and trucking, reduced prices and increased choices for consumers.
Efficiency and Service Improvements: Competition spurred efficiency improvements and better service quality.
Negative Outcomes:
Industry Volatility: The airline industry has experienced significant volatility, with frequent bankruptcies and consolidations.
Labor Impacts: Deregulation often led to job losses and reduced wages in transportation sectors.
Broadcasting and Media
Positive Outcomes:
Diverse Content and Innovation: Deregulation allowed more diverse media content and innovative broadcasting models.
Industry Growth: The media industry grew rapidly, with significant investments and new entrants.
Negative Outcomes:
Media Consolidation: Deregulation facilitated media consolidation, leading to a few corporations controlling large portions of the media landscape, potentially reducing diversity of viewpoints.
Quality Concerns: Increased focus on profit can sometimes lead to a decline in the quality of content.
Retail and Trade
Positive Outcomes:
Consumer Benefits: Lower prices, greater variety of products, and improved customer service resulted from increased competition.
Global Market Integration: Deregulation facilitated global trade, boosting economic growth and development.
Negative Outcomes:
Local Business Impact: Small and local businesses often struggled to compete with large multinational corporations.
Labor and Environmental Standards: Deregulation in trade sometimes led to the exploitation of labor and lax environmental standards in developing countries.
Conclusion
The results of neoliberal deregulation have been mixed. While there have been significant benefits such as increased competition, lower prices, technological innovation, and economic growth, there have also been notable downsides, including market concentration, increased risk and volatility, job losses, and potential declines in quality and consumer protection.
Whether these outcomes are viewed as "bad" results depends on the perspective. Proponents argue that deregulation fosters efficiency and growth, whereas critics highlight the social and economic costs, including inequality, instability, and diminished public welfare. The key challenge remains finding a balance between the benefits of deregulation and the need for adequate oversight and protection to mitigate its negative impacts.
I asked ChatGPT:
"Those notable downsides you describe above, could these not have been produced by bad new regulations and by badly implemented deregulations.
If so, is it not that assigning a political loaded term as “neoliberalism” to all this, only confuses what should, in terms of regulations, be in the best interest of the society?"
ChatGPT answered:
Your point is well-taken: the term "neoliberalism" often carries political and ideological connotations that can obscure the more nuanced and practical considerations necessary for effective regulation. Indeed, many of the negative outcomes associated with deregulation could result from poorly designed new regulations and inadequately implemented deregulations. Here are some key considerations:
Poorly Designed Regulations
Regulatory Capture: Regulations sometimes benefit the industries they are supposed to regulate due to close relationships between regulators and industry players, leading to ineffective oversight.
Complexity and Compliance Costs: Overly complex regulations can impose significant compliance costs on businesses, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, stifling innovation and competition.
Unintended Consequences: Regulations that do not fully consider market dynamics or stakeholder impacts can lead to unintended negative outcomes, such as reduced competition or increased barriers to entry.
Poorly Implemented Deregulation
Lack of Transition Plans: Abrupt or poorly planned deregulation can create market instability and uncertainty, harming consumers and businesses alike.
Insufficient Safeguards: Removing regulations without implementing adequate safeguards can lead to excessive risk-taking and market failures, as seen in the financial crisis of 2008.
Inadequate Enforcement: Even with deregulation, there needs to be strong enforcement of remaining rules to ensure fair play and protect consumers.
The Role of “Neoliberalism”
Assigning the term "neoliberalism" to these outcomes can indeed be politically loaded and may detract from objective analysis and solution-oriented discussions. Here are some ways to reframe the discussion:
Focus on Outcomes and Goals: Instead of framing the debate in terms of "neoliberalism" vs. "regulation," it might be more productive to focus on the specific outcomes and goals society wants to achieve, such as economic growth, stability, equity, and environmental sustainability.
Evidence-Based Policy Making: Emphasizing data-driven and evidence-based policy making can help identify what works and what doesn't, regardless of ideological labels.
Balancing Flexibility and Oversight: Striking the right balance between market flexibility and regulatory oversight is key. This involves continuous assessment and adjustment of regulations to respond to changing market conditions and emerging risks.
Inclusive Stakeholder Engagement: Engaging a wide range of stakeholders in the regulatory process can help ensure that regulations are well-designed and consider the needs and impacts on different segments of society.
Conclusion
Yes, many of the negative outcomes attributed to deregulation can indeed be the result of poorly designed or implemented policies. The term "neoliberalism" can be a distraction if it leads to polarized debates rather than constructive discussions on how to optimize regulatory frameworks.
By focusing on practical, evidence-based approaches to regulation that prioritize societal goals, we can move beyond ideological labels and work towards creating regulatory environments that foster innovation, protect consumers, ensure fair competition, and address broader social and environmental objectives.
I told ChatGPT:
Thanks! It's always a pleasure but, enough chatting today.
It answered:
You're welcome! I'm glad I could assist. Feel free to reach out anytime you have more questions or need further discussion. Have a great day!
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